“THE STREET INTERVIEW”
INTERVIEWING IN THE “HOOD” - HOW TO GET THE MOST INFORMATION
FROM GANG MEMBERS
by Susan Carlson, CLI, CRT
-- This article was featured in "The Legal Investigator" - PI Magazine, February 2010 edition --
INTRODUCTION:
If a criminal defense investigator practices in a city of any size, chances are he or she is going to conduct witness interviews in some really bad neighborhoods. The investigator is going to be talking to some really scary people, and I don't mean lawyers.
“The Street Interview” occurs when the professional investigator interviews gang members, their friends, their families or their neighbors on their turf. This type of interview is conducted in the field, in an un controlled environment, often under threatening conditions.
This article is written for the express purpose of informing readers of the tactics and techniques to be applied when interviewing Black and Latino Gangs, including but not limited to, The Black P Stone Rangers, The Vice Lords, The Gangster Disciples, The Four Corner Hustlers, The Latin Kings, Sureno 13, and The Insane Duces. These techniques play a pivotal role in the investigation of cases involving stabbings, shootings, rapes, murders, drug trafficking, kidnapping, murders for hire and other gang related crimes.
Traditional interview techniques, as taught by John E. Reid & Associates and Wicklander- Zulawski & Associates, as well as other recognized classroom settings, do not address the fact that in the field, without police power, no one wants to talk to a professional investigator. This is especially true in gang territory or other high crime neighborhoods, where the residents are either criminals, victims of crimes, relatives of victims, relatives of criminals or all of the above. These people do not want to see a professional investigator approaching and they definitely do not want to sit down to talk or to give the information that is sought.
The challenge to the professional investigator then becomes, how to get the interview, get the information and get out of there unharmed. There are developed tactics which exist that will help to facilitate a successful interview in the hood.
PRELIMINARY KNOWLEDGE:
Unlike controlled interviews, a professional investigator who finds himself or herself in a gang neighborhood is not afforded the chance to set up an interview room with ideal seating arrangements and perfect lighting conditions. There is no two-way mirror. An investigator conducting a “Street Interview” does not have an abundance of time to lead the subject down the garden path and certainly is not able to control the environment in which he or she works.
The Reid technique instructs its students on various steps to take in order to set up an interview room. This method of interview and interrogation teaches the ideal conditions but certainly not the normal circumstances which occur in the field. The well recognized and highly respected “nine steps of Interrogation” (1) ) are not appropriate when conducting “The Street Interview” for a number of reasons.
First, the interviewees are not suspects. They may or may not be witnesses and they are reluctant to talk, at best. Most of the interview techniques studied in classrooms are designed for the purposes of law enforcement (or other authority) to extract a confession from a suspect. In contrast, “The Street Interview” seeks information from third parties to the case.
Second, a private investigator in the field has no authority and, as such, needs to politely ask for cooperation. This may seem basic or remedial but it is more complicated than that; it is vital to getting the interview. If an investigator rubs people the wrong way in the “hood”, that investigator can get hurt. He or she is definitely not going to get cooperation and will have to go back to the attorney-client empty handed. This is just not an option to the professional investigator.
Third, a professional investigator in the “hood” may have only five minutes or less time and may be conducting the interview on a stoop, in a hallway, on a landing or next to a fire hydrant. The back seat of a car is to be avoided. Investigators working in the “hood” don’t have the luxury of setting up a space, organizing thoughts and proceeding in a relaxed, civilized manner.
Reid teaches that: “A person is more likely to divulge incriminating or sensitive information to someone who appears friendly and personable” (2) Simply put: “ You catch more flies with honey than vinegar”. (3) When talking to people in the “hood”, an investigator will get more cooperation if he or she asks nicely. People living in these crime ridden neighborhoods are not usually shown a lot of respect and they seem to respond favorably to people who ask questions in a sincere, friendly, and non-threatening manner. They do not like authority and it is best not to express any outward appearance of authority, either verbal or non-verbal. It is also important not to act shocked or to pass judgment as the interviewee begins to reveal himself or herself, as the professional investigator is there only to gather facts and to learn information.
THE WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHERE AND WHY - HOW TO FIND OUT WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW:
When conducting interviews in gang territory, a professional investigator needs to be able to act quickly and adapt to the situation at hand. Preparation is the key. In order to get a good interview, a professional investigator needs to have an encyclopedic knowledge of the case. The chance to pour over an organized list of notes in the field is not an option.
It is helpful to learn as much as possible in advance as to what relationships may or may not exist between the intended interviewees and others involved in the case. The luxury of establishing a baseline or basic behavior pattern of the witness does not exist in these types of interviews, rather, it may be necessary to immediately get to the heart of the matter. This means that the investigator needs, at a minimum, to have a working theory of the case, even though it may change as new information becomes available. Strategy conversation with the attorney-client ahead of time may be vital to help assure that the investigator will remain fluid during these types of interviews.
In cases which involve complex litigation, dozens of witnesses and numerous piles of discovery, often times the file will be voluminous. This is especially true of older cases. Perhaps, a case is being reviewed for appeal or for an attempt to get a new trial, which due to the size of its contents, presents all sorts of challenges for organization. The working witness list can be extensive. All of the witness’ details and what they have previously stated on record is relevant, even if the intent is not to speak to all of them, directly. Historical information can be helpful in interviewing a witness at hand and as such, the investigator needs to learn all of the material.
A gang case often involves two rival gangs and, in that circumstance, it is especially difficult to keep track of all of the witnesses and their previous statements, due to the fact that their names and descriptions may be similar. If a professional investigator finds himself or herself with the task of talking to rival gang members in the field, it is necessary to be certain of what they have already stated.
In these complex cases, it is especially important to study the material and take concise notes before entering in to the field. A good method to manage this type of information is to use note cards. It is helpful to write the synopsis of the witness’s statement, as well as additional information pertaining to the person, on to an index card. The top of the card should be labeled with the name of the witness and his or her street name in parentheses. Most gang members are known by a “street name” and this can be confusing if not properly noted. The names can be difficult to pronounce, especially if the case involves two rival Latino gangs and the investigator does not speak Spanish, so it is suggested to study this material prior to entering in to the hood.
Index cards are extremely useful for witness organization. It is helpful to use one color for one gang and a different color for the other gang. White cards, if used for bystander witnesses, enable the investigator to quickly sort and reference the information for further study.
Generally, it is best to prioritize the interview process by determining whom to talk to first. The index cards can easily be arranged in order of the interview sequences. If possible, it is best to start with the least important person to the investigation and work up the witness chain. This may seem counter-productive, but it is beneficial for the simple reason that information may be gathered along the way which may point the investigation in a certain direction. Information from a less important witness may help when the investigator eventually is able to speak to a more important witness.
Reid teaches that an open-ended question should be asked early in the interview process. When a professional investigator conducts a “Street Interview” it is beneficial to ask a question which requires a narrative response. Reid states: “ When attempting to determine what happened to a victim, a suspect’s alibi, or what a witness saw or heard, the investigator should elicit this information by asking an initial open question early during the interview.” (4)
As mentioned previously, talking to people in the “hood” can be an abrupt process and one needs to be quick. By asking: “Please tell me everything that you saw in the alley”, the investigator is more likely to get a useful answer than by asking: “Did you see who shot Damont Johnson?”
Open- ended questions allow for narrative answers and are more likely to include truthful responses as the interviewee gets to decide what to include in his or her answer. The witness may choose to leave details out or the answer may be incomplete, but it is a good place to start. If the witness is going to be less than truthful, it will be revealed and dealt with it early on by adapting the questions.
The investigator will need to make a quick judgement if follow- up questions are necessary, in order to clarify information contained in the open-ended response. These are questions which are geared specifically toward some aspect of the witness’ original answer and are asked for the purpose of clarifying a point. It is vital that the investigator have complete knowledge of the case in order to guide the interview. If the investigator senses his witness is not telling the truth, he or she may choose to continue with certain precise points or shoot from the hip and go in another direction, depending on how the witness responds. An ill-prepared investigator will miss a crucial opportunity at this point in the interview.
Even though a professional investigator may arrive with a list of specific questions which have been crafted to elicit certain answers, it is beneficial to allow room for the witness to fill in the blanks. After speaking to a witness in the “hood”, regardless of what information may have been gleaned, it can prove useful for the investigator to ask one closing question before thanking the witness for his or her time. Examples of good closing questions are: “Is there anything else you can think of that may help me?”, or, “Is there anyone you can think of that I should talk to?”
Often times, gang members want to brag about how smart they are in order to inflate their own importance. If this occurs, the witness may come up with some additional piece of information or some previously unknown witness, when asked a well crafted closing question. Even if this does not occur, the interview ends on a high note and the witness feels good about him or herself. This may be of benefit should the investigator need to go back and talk to that witness, later.
As the professional investigator works his or her way up the witness list, less cooperative witnesses are more likely to be found. These people are total challenges. One way to get them to agree to the interview is to tell them that it is in their best interest that they talk to you. An example of this would be: “Look, you want this to go away right? I am the best chance that will happen. Tell me what you know and maybe we can get to the bottom of this and no one else is going to come poking around. Hey, I am not the police... It is not my job to get anyone in trouble but I do need to know what happened.” It helps to appear to be the good guy, which is in fact, the truth.
Gang crime investigations pose unique challenges for the professional investigator. A well prepared investigator is one who recognizes these special circumstances and has learned to adapt his or her interview techniques to the players.
Here are some tips that are important in order to succeed in gathering information from the “hood”. No tip is too small if it helps the investigator to get the information and get out of there in one piece. These are not meant to be mentioned in any particular order of importance, but, rather, they are all important and should be taken into consideration, as a whole, in order to achieve success with “The Street Interview”.
“STREET INTERVIEW” BULLET POINTS:
- Partner Up. Unlike police work, a defense investigator is usually required to go it alone. Even high profile cases do not always allow funds for an additional investigator to conduct interviews. Sometimes an investigator must insist, as it can be a matter of safety. If the attorney-client does not have the money in the budget for two investigators and if the area is really bad, partner up with someone and pay them out of your own pocket or offer to work an assignment for them as a trade for services. The term “body guard” may sound extreme, but that is essentially what may be required. A chosen partner is not required to possess interview skills or even be familiar with the case, but, rather, is there to watch your back, so that you are better able to do your job safely.
- Go early in the morning. This is the time that the gang bangers are sleeping. You are less likely to get caught in a crossfire and less likely to run across the worst individual on the block early in the morning. Be extremely courteous and apologetic if you wake someone up.
- Do your homework. Check with the local police precinct to find out ahead of time what gangs operate in the particular neighborhood that you are entering and ask for a “citizen assist”, if necessary. Let the police know where you are going to be. Often times they will send a car and position themselves on the block of your witness’ address. The trick here is that police do not want to hear that you are conducting defense interviews. If the police have someone in custody, it is generally not a good idea to advertise that you are trying to get that person out. Less is best. Simply state that you are conducting an interview at a particular address and they normally do not ask its purpose.
- Arm yourself. This is a personal decision. We all hope the need will never arise to draw a weapon but it is comforting for the professional investigator to know that he or she can defend himself or herself, if necessary. Confidence is everything.
- Know the lingo. Don’t try to use it, just know what it is so that you understand what people are talking about. There is a gang specific language that is spoken in the “hood” and it may as well be Greek if you don't learn it first. It would be totally ridiculous to try to speak it, so don’t try. You will lose credibility.
- Know the colors and don’t wear them. In Chicago, the most common “colors” are red for Vice Lords and blue for GD’s or Black Gangster Disciples. Gang members are not required to wear their colors but they often do and it helps to know who or what you are dealing with. It also helps to know about hats... tilting a cap to the left indicates Vice Lord and to the right means you are most likely looking at a GD. Every gang has its own identifiers, so learn what is common to the area in which you will be working.
- Recognize the tattoos or “tats” and hand signs. In Chicago, it is common to see gang bangers “throw up a sign” to identify their affiliation. For example, the index finger and the pinky held up with both hands facing backwards, fists together, denotes The Latin Kings. In Chicago, if a gang banger holds up all fingers, except for the ring finger which remains to the palm, he is a Vice Lord. A total fist, palm outward is a Black B. Stone sign and their “tat” is a crescent moon. It is essential to be able to recognize these sings in the field. Know that if you see a gang banger throw these signs upside down, it is an intentional insult to a rival gang and a fight, or worse, could break out.
- Show respect. Ask for the time of the person with whom you wish to speak and tell him or her that you need his or her help. Address that witness as “ma’am” or “sir” or “Mr.” or “ Ms.” (unless you are talking to a youth, and sometimes even then it might be appropriate). The term “associate” is common when referring to other gang members.
- Don’t dress down. Just because you are going in to the “hood” does not mean that you should wear grubby clothes or appear too casual. Dress and act professional, just as you would if you had a court appearance. Respect is appreciated.
- State up front that you work for the Defense. In the “hood”, criminal defense attorneys are the good guys, cops are the bad guys. This is a big advantage. Exploit it as much as you can. The Reid courses teach that an interviewer should assume a neutral position. (4) However, remember that the Reid technique was developed for interviewing and interrogating a suspect, not a witness. The most effective way to get cooperation from a witness in the “hood” is to state up front that you are working for the defense.
1.
If you are interviewing a rival (to your accused) gang member or ” associate,” don't reveal that you are trying to help the person beat the charges, just state that you are trying to determine what happened and that you may be able to facilitate a plea. This is not a lie. Attorneys want to know what bad information is out there about their client as most cases end up in a plea, not on a trial.
2.
Most people in gang neighborhoods do not like it when people poke around into their business. They sometimes do not think too quickly on their feet and will talk, just to get rid of the investigator. The thought of ending the conversation and avoiding further involvement is appealing to them and often times these witnesses will give information thinking it will mean they will not be subpoenaed later.
- Listen to what they have to say. Sometimes this means listening to the facts of some other non- related case or legal matter. In the “hood”, everyone has a relative who is incarcerated.... “for a crime they did not commit”. It is best to appear genuinely interested in and helpful with their concerns. If you help them, often they will help you.
- Forego note taking if possible. This is contrary to most interview practice, but people in the “hood” don't usually want to go on record. The mood of a “Street Interview” may be broken entirely, if
the person you are interviewing gets spooked by the fact that you are writing down what he or she is telling you. If you absolutely have to write something down, do so in a manner not to indicate that it is particularly vital information or you may see your subject shut down, entirely. If you have an additional investigator with you, and you feel safe enough to release that person from watching your back, note taking should be done by that person. Otherwise, be very casual about it. Don’t ask the witness if you may take notes, he or she will most likely say “No”.
- Be alert and stay in shape. It is no joke if you can’t move fast. Be aware of your surroundings. Look for exits and don’t back yourself up against a wall. If you have a bad feeling about being invited inside an apartment, stay outside in the hallway and talk there. If you have a bad feeling about the hallway, talk outside on the stoop but don’t insult the host by saying that you don’t wish to go inside. Sometimes, this is difficult to accomplish during certain weather conditions but try not to go inside a gang banger’s “crib”, if possible as you can find yourself suddenly out numbered, out of sight and in danger.
CONCLUSION:
Every investigator has his or her own style, and any investigator worth his or her salt has studied interview techniques from several sources. Much has been written on the subject. Gang crime investigation presents a unique set of challenges and is not for the faint of heart. Arguably, in no other area of professional investigation is preparation more important, not only to obtain useful information, but, also, to keep the investigator safe.
There are gangs everywhere and a punk is a punk, but career, hardcore inner city gang affiliated punks are a breed apart, and it is best to identify and understand them as much as possible before you enter into their world.
1. Inbau, Fred E; Reid, John E.; Buckley, Joseph; Jayne, Brian C. Essentials of the Reid Technique: Criminal Interrogation & Confessions; p 125
2. Inbau, Fred E; Reid, John E.; Buckley, Joseph; Jayne, Brian C. Essentials of the Reid Technique: Criminal Interrogation & Confessions; p 38
3. unknown source, widely used and repeated throughout time
4. Inbau, Fred E; Reid, John E.; Buckley, Joseph; Jayne, Brian C. Essentials of the Reid Technique: Criminal Interrogation & Confessions; p 60
5. Inbau, Fred E; Reid, John E.; Buckley, Joseph; Jayne, Brian C. Essentials of the Reid Technique: Criminal Interrogation & Confessions; p 40
